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LOwering - Suzuki Vitara JLX - Need Springs

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atotheK
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Joined: 24 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 22:05    Post subject: LOwering - Suzuki Vitara JLX - Need Springs Reply with quote

Hi

Can anyone help, i need some springs (full set) as low as poss - 50mm - cannot seem to find them anywhere ...help has anyone got any they would like to sell.

Thanks

Regards

Karl
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popuptoaster
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 22:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

just cut the stock ones and fit shorter shocks.
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zocko
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 13:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

popuptoaster wrote:
just cut the stock ones and fit shorter shocks.


dont EVER cut springs

buy the right ones

look at spax adjustable coilovers.....
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popuptoaster
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 13:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

nowt wrong with cut springs if they are done right, matched to the right dampers and wired in afterwards, there is a lot of misinformation on the net about this.


Pigtail springs should not be cut on the shaped end.
They WONT fail an MOT
Cutting them with a thin cutting disc WONT alter the temper and ruin them.
They are not illegal.


How do you think the manufactures get them to the right length? thats right, they cut them.
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popuptoaster
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 13:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

popuptoaster wrote:
nowt wrong with cut springs if they are done right, matched to the right dampers and wired in afterwards, there is a lot of misinformation on the net about this.


Pigtail springs should not be cut on the shaped end.
They WONT fail an MOT
Cutting them with a thin cutting disc WONT alter the temper and ruin them.
They are not illegal.


How do you think the manufactures get them to the right length? thats right, they cut them.



The MOT manual says

A cut, shortened or lowering spring is not a reason for rejection so long as they seat correctly, and reseat without assistance on jacking up and letting down.
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Tallbike
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 14:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

angry4 Whatever the manual says don't matter.... I would never cut a spring to fit, I always buy the right spring/shock set up for the job. Going back to when I used to modify cars, cut springs were always frowned upon because a spring in stock length was designed and tested to carry a certain weight, a cut spring would only be capable of carrying less than the weight of the vehicle and contents and has not been tested!! I've seen what happens when springs break on road cars!! People I know have been killed!!! Why does anyone feel its acceptable to modify a spring when 'ready to fit' alternative exist in aftermarket stores/online/magazines, its beyond me!!!

Exclamation Popuptoaster - You've hit a very raw subject with me and I urge you to remove your post. Whist I fully understand that cutting springs is not illegal, its not something that any Tom-*beep* with an angle grinder should attempt! Springs degrade and become less 'springy' with age and cutting them causes extra stress's that the springs were not designed to take as there is less spring to do the same job as a full spring. For the purposes of say... banger racing, what the hell cut the spring as the car will be trashed anyway but I disagree with cutting them for ANY sort of roadgoing vehicle.
I'm not going to tell tails to Admin, but I do feel this is the wrong advice to be giving on a public forum and same advice given innocently in the past has resulted in people cutting their own springs and has ended in lives lost. I hope you understand my view point and hope you understand by posting this that its not my intention to offend you, merely to advise against posting 'negligable' advice and appologise if this has come accross too strong.
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Driving a 99' Vitara JX 4U2...
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Matching trailer being built from a 5 door Vit, watch this space!
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popuptoaster
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 15:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cut springs are not "weaker" actually the spring rate goes UP in proportion to the amount cut off so a cut spring will actually carry MORE weight than when it was standard length.

leaf springs can be reshaped, coil springs can cut, its not gonna kill a bus full of nuns or a basket full of kittens.

cutting them slowly with a thin cutting disc to avoid overheating them, and then using a grinding disc to flatten the cut end of so that it does not cut into the spring cup will work just fine and is not "dangerous"

cutting them makes them no more likely to break than any other old spring, by your logic you should replace every part of any second hand car as all of it is "old"

I have been building and modifying cars and bikes since i was 15, I'm now 44 and have been a round the seen all that time, I have built hydarulic low riders, high performance old school Fords, hot rods and kit cars and not once had a disaster.

I have mate to consult who build or restore cars for a living, i have a mate who builds up classic race cars and one who left Spax to set up his own suspension design company (Gaz, who will by the way make you any length spring to fit any car, funnily enough, they wind up great big long lengths of spring and then CUT them to length!) I have friends running 400bhp YB powered  mk1 and 2 Escorts which are home built, some run sophisticated suspension while others run modded standard stuff, if a cut down spring is not gonna fail at 180mph at Bruntingthorpe Im pretty sure a 90bhp Vitara isnt gonna be killing bus queues because the springs have been shortened.

I think before you start hollering about dangerous advice you need to get your facts straight, Im pretty sure you dont get all your tall bike frames and components stress tested before using them for example, despite all the extra leverage and weight you are adding onto components not designed to take it.
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zocko
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 23:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

no need to get heated guys....

ask your friend a simple question popup, if a meter of coil is needed to hold up a corner, how would less material hold the same weight. wouldnt they just use less steel in the first place and save the money?

does your friend just buy standard springs and cut them to length or are they made to the required length then tempered to give them their "spring" charactristic.

by cutting the spring shorter you are putting more stress on the original material so therefore reducing its shock absorbing capacity. this can be dangerous and i have experienced a cut springs failure at high speed (90mph+)

what youve also got to remember is that your friend is a professional who knows how to modify springs safely enough to be willing to guarantee his handy work. the other side of this is that if you advise an amateur to slice chunks off his coils would you be willing to guarantee that its safe?

think of it this way: would you put your child in the car of a stranger if they told you theyd taken a disc cutter to the suspension?

im not saying that they cant be shortened but you must remember that if someones asking how to lower a car, its unlikely theyll have the technical know-how to slice 4 pieces of high tensile steel to within the tolerances needed to keep the car level and safe on the road.

have you ever seen the consequences of a spring failure at 50+mph on the road?
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popuptoaster
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 19:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

A coil spring works on leverage thats why less metal can hold more weight, they work the same way as a torsion bar does except wound up into a coil shape, Its carrying the weight on its ends and the metal has to twist along its length to "give".

Imagine a diving board, it will support more weight at its halfway point than it does right at the end, its not the amount of material, its were you put the load in this case.


He makes spring to order, but they are not cut to length and then tempered, they buy in spring steel of various sizes and coil it up and cut it to the desired sizes.

Any short spring has more stress on it as you are asking less steel to deflect more when you hit the same bumps, thats not any worse in a home cut spring than a proffesionally bought one.


Its not complicated to cut springs, if someone has the technical ability to get them out of the car and refit them afterwards im pretty sure they would be able to cut them all the same length.

I usually buy my springs, but for some cars they are either unavailable or bloody expensive so i will cut them, i have also reversed the eyes on leaf springs and decambered them a with a hammer and anvil or a home made bottle jack press, springs are not magic, its just steel.

people seem to have decided cut springs are the work of the devil, yet for years that was the only way to get a car lower other than heating up the springs (now that IS dangerous), its no more dangerous than any other alteration to a standard cars suspension, brakes or steering, and probably safer than fitting longer ones that reduce a cars stability but plenty of us on here have done or will be jacking up our Suzukis
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popuptoaster
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 19:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

whoops, forgot a point, No, i have never seen the result of a broken spring at 50mph, the main reason? because most people never even notice that they are running with a broken spring thats why. Find an MOT place and ask them how many times they find a busted coil spring on a car the owner never even noticed, its pretty common.

Just google for "MOT failiure, broken road spring" and you'll find loads of examples or people who never even knew they had a broken spring.
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zocko
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 23:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

my point is that if a spring is designed to carry 500kg for example over a length of 1m then you cut it, it will put excessive stress on the amount of material when you shorten it. so if you were to cut 20% off that coil, it would only be able to support 80% of its original design load in this example 400kg.

also, if you were to cut 50mm off an existing spring, it would most likely drop the vehicle by around 55mm due to its lowered capacity.

also, if an mot tester looks at a spring at FEELS it has been cut or altered in a way that MAY make it unsafe, it is within their right to declare it a failure.

yes it can be done but its not a job that should be attempted by someone with very little mechanical knowledge.

ask your friend how they rate torsional strength on springs and how load bearing capacity is worked out, its not just a case of that'll do and hope for the best.

a spring manufacturer calculates the exact load a specific amount of coil can carry and adjusts thickness/rigidity/tightness of coil etc accordingly to suit their requirements.
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popuptoaster
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you over load a spring it just closes up and ends up all coil bound in which case it will carry many times its design weight because it in effect becomes a solid tube, you dont break coil springs by putting to much weight on them, they break through damage, wear and tear or manufacturing defects in the steel which is beyond the control of who ever makes the springs unless they are also making the spring steel bars they make them from.


Quote:
my point is that if a spring is designed to carry 500kg for example over a length of 1m then you cut it, it will put excessive stress on the amount of material when you shorten it. so if you were to cut 20% off that coil, it would only be able to support 80% of its original design load in this example 400kg.


As i explained before thats wrong, because of the way the spring works the spring rate goes up and the spring can support more weight if you shorten it. Shortening a spring makes it stiffer, as evidenced by the need to fit shorter, stiffer dampers to match cut down springs.

Quote:
also, if you were to cut 50mm off an existing spring, it would most likely drop the vehicle by around 55mm due to its lowered capacity.


Actually because the spring rate goes up, the spring compresses less and you get less drop than you were expecting, reshaping the end of the spring correctly can bring it down a bit, but I have done it myself, cut springs down and reassembled them and then had to take them all apart and cut another coil out to get the car lower.

Quote:
also, if an mot tester looks at a spring at FEELS it has been cut or altered in a way that MAY make it unsafe, it is within their right to declare it a failure.


No it isnt, If the spring seats correctly, is undamaged and matches the one on the other side of the car he cant fail it, If he does then appeal his decision, cut springs are NOT an MOT failiure and it clearl says so in the MOT manual, in fact if you painted them before you put them back in, how would an MOT man even know you had cut them rather than bought them that way?


Quote:
ask your friend how they rate torsional strength on springs and how load bearing capacity is worked out, its not just a case of that'll do and hope for the best.

a spring manufacturer calculates the exact load a specific amount of coil can carry and adjusts thickness/rigidity/tightness of coil etc accordingly to suit their requirements.


I dont get your point here, of course they dont guess, they look at each aplication, work out whats needed, select the approipriate steel and wind it up into the appropraite shape.

Cutting down a standard spring it allready meets the standard criteria, when you shorten it you stiffen it which is what you want from a lower spring usually.
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Tallbike
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I've managed to open a can of worms here.... I do understand where your coming from Pop-up but don't go there with my Tallbikes, not a vehicle subject to an MoT and I don't sell them to the public!

My whole arguement is that a rank ameture shouldn't be cutting springs and that I know of people who have died as a result of spring failure at higher speeds... your right I haven't researched it, but I do feel its not good advice to hand over to just anyone on an open forum. The remainder of my previous post is arguably opinion but you have to admit it mate, I'm not alone it seems in my thinking.

The original post asks if its possible to get 50mm lowering springs for a Vitara Jlx... if he can't find any this means....

1) Hes not looking in the right places

2) Noone is selling them on Ebay at the moment

OR

3) They don't exist because 40mm(Made by a reputable company, probably available!) are SAFE enough! Rolling Eyes

Anyways, whilst I'm more sympathetic to your view now than when you first posted on this subject, I'm not sold by the idea and I still deem that cutting springs for a road car is dangerous (for an ameture to attempt!!) and shouldn't be done!!

So why do companies make lowering springs if the real answer by yourself Pop-up is to simply cut them??
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Driving a 99' Vitara JX 4U2...
Now in black
2" body lift & 2" suspension lift
31" MT tyres
Matching trailer being built from a 5 door Vit, watch this space!
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popuptoaster
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So why do companies make lowering springs if the real answer by yourself Pop-up is to simply cut them??


Same reason you can go into a garage and get them to service your car, or a Subway and get them to make you a sarny, or a laundry and get them to wash your clothes, cos some people prefer to buy things and other prefer to do them themselves.


I think we'll have to agree to differ here, i have built 2 kit cars with cut down front springs and recambered rear leaf springs on them that have gone through the SVA test (now IVA) with no bother, and have run plenty of cars that have passed MOT the same way.

I've never broken a spring, either stock or cut, i have had prop shafts snap, exhausts fall off, crashed motorcycles and even once lost a front wheel on a Standard 10 Hotrod while negotiating a roundabout in Billericay.

Any of those things COULD have killed me (the bike crash nearly did) but they didnt, so yes maybe a broken coil spring could kill you, but a snapped coil spring should not cause you to lose control of your car, even should it snap right in half, that corner should only drop onto the bumpstop, the car should not hit the ground or jam the wheel in any way on an otherwise standard car, thats what the bumpstops are for, to stop anything vital hitting anything else should you run out of suspension travel.
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Tallbike
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 14:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

popuptoaster wrote:
I think we'll have to agree to differ here,

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Driving a 99' Vitara JX 4U2...
Now in black
2" body lift & 2" suspension lift
31" MT tyres
Matching trailer being built from a 5 door Vit, watch this space!
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